And welcome back to 35,000 Watts, the podcast. My name is Michael Millard. I am the director of a feature documentary called 35,000 Watts, the story of college radio. It is surprisingly about college radio, and it is available right now for download at 35,000 watts.com. The podcast is also about college radio, and today’s topic probably is the most college radio topic maybe you could possibly talk about in terms of music.
We’re talking about the quintessential iconic college radio band REM. And the reason we’re doing it is because I don’t know how long you can go on a college radio podcast without talking about REM and just diving into it. And we keep kinda doing some other topics, and, like, REM will come up and it’s like, you know what? We’ll talk about those guys separately. Like, we don’t wanna get into the too much.
We you know, there’s too much to talk about with REM, and they need their own episodes. So here we are. This is REM’s very own episode. I am here with Keith Porterfield Happy to do that. And Scott Mobley.
Hello? They are gonna offer their takes on the 3 eras of of REM is how we’re gonna break this down. We have the IRS era. And for those of you not in the know IRS was the original record label that signed REM. That era runs roughly speaking, 1981 to 1987.
The second era is the Warner Brothers era with the drummer, Bill Berry, still on board, 1988 to 1996. And then the final era of REM after Bill Berry has left the band from 1998 until the breakup in, 2011 or 2012. The last album came out in 2011. I can’t remember if they officially broke up until 2012. I probably should have looked that up ahead of time, but what’s what’s the fun of that?
So those are the 3 eras we’re gonna talk about, and we’ll start with, the IRS era. So REM is a band from the South, and they started out making people call it different things, you know, southern southern rock, I guess, to a degree, but that doesn’t that I think most people, if you hear that, are gonna think more like Lynyrd Skynyrd. So that wasn’t a great descriptor. Jangle pop is probably the the best description of REM, but the reason it’s hard to describe is because they were kinda doing something unique. The reason that I think REM made a name for themselves, the reason that I think they endeared themselves to college radio, the reason that they struck a chord with a lot of people is is they really were doing something that people hadn’t really heard before at that at that point.
It was it’s a unique take on on rock music. It’s a unique take a unique take on folk music depending on how you kinda wanna see their you know, what direction you think that they were coming from when they arrived at at the songs that are on Chronic Town EP and murmur, which is kind of the first sets of of recorded music that we hear from REM. From all accounts, their live shows were much better than their early albums in terms of the energy, and and they tended to be a little more rocking than than what we hear, particularly on murmur, I think. So some of their mystique and some of the some of the popularity of REM really came from them, you know, relentlessly touring and building an audience, and that’s hard for us to imagine going back. We were all you know, especially in their early days, we were too young to to have seen REM.
I don’t think any of us saw REM until much later in their career. So it’s hard to kind of put yourself back in that mode of what they must have been like to see live and and to see them when they were young on stage. So we really just have their recorded albums to go by, you know, for our own takes on on their catalog, but that is something to keep in mind. So the albums we’re talking about again, Chronic Town EP came out first, then murmur, reckoning, fables of the reconstruction, life stretch pageant, and document. At a high level, you go from from the softer, more acoustic based jingle pop that murmur, reckoning, and and even fables of the reconstruction has, and then Lifeshurst Pageant is is a very different take on on the REM sound, but yet fits right in with their catalog as they kinda pick up the electric guitar, turn up the volume a little bit, and then document is almost as not a step back, a step sideways, I guess.
It’s, it’s not as loud. It’s not it doesn’t have the the rock foundation, I guess, that Life’s Church Pageant does. So, even in this era, which is is just a part of their career, you have a lot of variety and a lot of of growth that that you see among the albums. And I’m I’m curious kind of when you guys go back and listen to these albums, what you what you see and and what you think about that early part of their career. A little backstory of how I found this band, how I got into this band.
I remember when I was in high school, I was probably a sophomore or a junior, so we’re talking 87, somewhere in there. I was happened to be sitting in on the auditions for the talent show at the high school I went to. And these 2 guys came in with acoustic guitars, 2 acoustic guitars, and played Superman. That was their audition for the talent show. I had never heard this song.
I had heard of REM. I wanna say that document was out at this time, like I and I think I had. And I you know, the one I love and and, end of the world so we know it were on the radio. So I was familiar with REM, but I had never dug deeper than that, I don’t think. These guys came in and played Superman.
I never heard the song. After they were done, I went up to him and asked him, who is that? What is that? And they said, well, it’s a cover song, but we’re playing the version that REM I am. I am.
I am to prevent, and I know what’s happening. I was like, oh, REM. I know those guys. You know? On the strength of that, I went and bought Life’s Search Pageant, and the rest is history.
As they say, I was absolutely enamored with that album. For me, you know, and I think for most people probably, this is the golden era of REM. This is when you think of REM’s sound, when you think of their why they were being pushed into the the spotlight the way they were, it’s all from these IRS albums. And I I mentioned this before we started recording, but, ironically, for me, if I was to rank the IRS albums from top to bottom, the 2 most critically adored ones, which are murmur and document, would be the 2 at the bottom. And that is not to say anything away from those albums.
I think they’re both wonderful. But I personally kind of lean towards Lifeworks Pageant, which is my favorite REM album. I love, Fables of Reconstruction. I love Reckoning a lot, and I love the chronic Downey p. Particularly, carnival of sorts, which is also one of my favorite, REM songs.
So I was very attracted to the jangly pop sound of REM. When I was listening to these albums, those were the songs that I wanted to hear. You know, songs like Don’t Go Back to Rockville and Can’t Get There From Here. And, you know, the the ones that were the upbeat jangly pop songs were the ones that just got to me first. As I remained a fan and went into the later years with them, the other stuff and the more mellower stuff and some of the more melodic stuff started to to win me over.
But at this time, at that at that era, I was all about that that jaggery pop sound. And you you had a little trouble describing it. I think most people do. This word wasn’t used at the time, but it is now, and I think it’s appropriate. It’s Americana.
It’s not quite country. It’s not quite rock. It’s not quite it’s right there in between, and it’s sort of this perfect American sound. And I think that’s why through this era and into the next one especially, you started hearing things like, this is the greatest American rock and roll band. And it’s because this is the band with the most American rock sound.
And they really were masters of it. And, and we’ll get into sort of where that went and, you know, how it morphed and changed and and what it became or whatever. But I think during this era, the IRS era, they really were just nailing that sort of American rock and roll band sound. That’s really interesting. I don’t know that Americana is a word that I ever would have used to describe REM.
That’s, that’s an interesting take. I I wouldn’t wanna think about that for a second. But you’re right, it is quintessentially American rock, so that it does make sense. For me, REM, I actually came to them a little later, after the IRS years. The first time I really remember hearing them was, Stand when it was on the radio.
I think I had maybe heard end of the world as we know it before that, I wasn’t really familiar with them before that. I I had to go back and and dive into them. I had a buddy that had Life Church Pageant. And so that was actually my first taste of REM other than hearing them on the radio. And so Life Church Pageant is easily the most rocking album out of those 1st years out of the IRS years.
And so I, at first, had a little bit of a, you know, kind of skewed perspective on them because I expected more of a rock and roll band when I went and listened to other stuff. The next one I heard after that was murmur, which by far is not a rocking album. It’s a great album, but it is not it’s nowhere near as rocking as last year’s pageant. So I’m just a little taken aback by it. I think with murmur, you know, a lot of the kind of critical acclaim for that album, to my mind, comes from the sound of it as much as it does from the, actual songs.
You know, it was kind of the the mumbled lyrics and Peter Buck’s guitar, you know, kind of the open ended, play guitar playing. If you look at that album, there are some good songs on it, but I don’t think it’s got the the as strong as songs as some of the ones that came after. And I actually kinda feel the same way about reckoning. I think they start to tighten up a little bit on reckoning. It doesn’t, you know, definitely have some good ones on there.
You got, South Central Rain and, Don’t Go Back to Rockville. But it’s really not until for me, not until fables of the reconstruction that they really kinda start to hit their stride. And really, my favorite out of that entire era, well, was document. I know you said, Scotty, that you had that listed, you know, down toward the bottom of your list. Man, I love Document.
It’s probably one of my top 3 or 4, REM albums. And I think as much as it’s the the singles, you know, you had Finest Works song, 1 I Love, End of the World, it’s another one that’s got just a ton of great album tracks. Welcome to the Occupation, Exhuming McCarthy, King of Birds, all are just fanfantastic songs. A mean idea to calm my own. A 100 and I kinda think by the time they got to document, they’re kinda starting to move toward the sound that is going to really kinda define them moving forward, which I think they kind of perfect in the early Warner Brothers years.
You were mentioning album cuts on document that are great, and you mentioned some great ones, but you didn’t mention one that I really wanna give a shout out to, and that’s the service at the Heron House, which I think is a wonderful R. E. M. Song. Yeah.
You’re right. Yeah. It’s it’s under the radar. I mean, the IRS ears to me are filled with those little hidden gems that I think everybody that goes and, you know, actually listens to the album. Everybody has, like, those 2 or 3 songs that kinda stuck out to them because the albums are so good.
There’s not always gonna be the 1 or 2 tracks that everybody kind of agrees or like, oh, that’s the best track on the album. There are songs that rose to the top because they were pushed to singles or because they were released to singles or whatever. But what’s magical about those first five albums is that everybody has a different favorite song and they’re all right. Like, nobody’s wrong about that. Right?
Because, like, it’s just, you know, possibly one of the best runs of albums of any band. Every album is is really strong. And you could make a case for for murmur having its low points. You can make a case for reckoning being, you know, maybe a little bit of a rehash of murmur and not necessarily, you know, the step forward that, like, fables and Leiser’s pageant document. They all they all really moved the, the career forward a little bit.
And in, in my personal take on the era is that reckoning is maybe the one kind of spot where they were a little stuck in place and they weren’t quite sure what to do with themselves after murmur, but it still has a number of great, songs on it. So when you talk about favorite albums and and least favorite albums of this era, you’re still up in some pretty rarefied air, I think, even on the on the worst side of that. Yeah. I I was gonna say, you know, reckoning, you you might be right about it sort of being maybe a little disjointed or whatever, but when that album is on, it is it is on. And I think it’s you know, I talked a little bit about some of the songs that weren’t jangly pop that, you know, are really really great, you know.
And that that album has South Central Rain and Pretty Persuasion. I mean, those those are great songs. The album as a whole, maybe not, but it it it’s certainly worth listening to. It’s it’s it’s really, really good. They were trying to record Reckoning, like, kind of under the table and, like, they were trying to get it done really quickly so the label wouldn’t come and and tell them what to do.
Like, even early on, and again, a label that is is famously known for being, you know, pretty easygoing and and letting artists do their thing. REM was just such a mystery to to everybody and, like, what to do with them and how to market them that that they were even getting a little pushback from IRS, and they were kinda trying to get that one done and in the can before IRS could try to steer him in a different direction. Speaking of record labels, they switched record labels after document, as you guys well know, and kicked off the second era of of REM. And so this was signing to a major label, Warner Brothers and all the attendant angst from their fans about what that meant, you know, for REM to be one of the first American bands to really wear that that badge of being an alternative band or being a college radio band or being the founders of college rock or all the thing, all the superlatives you you wanted to say about RM. One of the big things they also were were were an indie band.
You know, IRS was considered an indie label, I guess, at that time. I don’t know that the distinction between indie and majors was maybe as as big a deal, but the distinction between IRS and Warner Brothers was a big deal. And I don’t know if they were thought of as being, again, and as as it being an indie versus major, but it was seen as them leaving the the record label that nurtured them and that helped them kinda start their career. And I’m sure there’s a section of of their fan base at that time that that saw it as a sellout. I don’t think that you see that in the music that they create.
I I don’t think that you listen to green or out of time or out of matter for the people and think, ah, these guys really sold out. Like, that’s not the sense I get from that music. I think there are a couple other things that are happening at this time. Document, was the first album that was produced by Scott Litt and all of the the w b, Bill Berry albums in this era that we’re talking about. Green, Out of Time, Automatic for the People, Monster, and New Adventures in Hi Fi are all produced by Scott Litt.
So there’s, a production change in terms of maybe they’re being a little more polished. The guys are all of course, they’re maturing. They’re getting to be better songwriters. They’re discovering new instruments, which you definitely will see in in songs from out of time where there’s a mandolin playing. Like, those are all things that they were so they were starting to experiment.
All of these albums are, again, pretty different albums. They record green and have a couple big hits and go out on what would be their last tour for quite a while on that album and then come back and record basically 2 studio albums that that they do not tour on out of time and automatic for the people. They’re quiet for the most part. There’s not a lot of electric guitar if if really any on those albums. They’re not necessarily albums that you would think a band would go out and play, like, huge arena shows on, and and in fact, they did not do that.
And then that leads to the desire to record an album that they can go tour on, and that album is monster. And it’s probably the most it’s certainly of this era, the most contentious album among r m fans in terms of its overall quality. My pet theory that I’ll just throw into the mix here for for discussion is that new adventures in hi fi, which is the album after monster, is a is a better album. It’s a more diverse album. It’s got better songwriting.
And my theory is, well, I guess there’s really 2 theories. 1 is that the reason it’s a better album and the reason I think that it it sounds more natural and more like what I would have wanted REM to do in in 94 when monster came out is because it was really record written and recorded while they were on the road touring on the monster tour. So my my kind of theory about that is that you record out of time, you record automatic for the people, you haven’t been out on the road for a while and you’re like, hey, we wanna rock, but Monster is a a studio rock album. It’s not them really going out and standing on a stage and and rocking out. It’s them in a studio trying to rock out.
And there’s great songs on it. I mean, the songwriting is still there. There’s there’s good stuff, but I think where monster falls short is that it doesn’t feel authentically like a rock album. It feels a little bit like a manufactured rock album, and that’s where New Adventures in High Fi flips that completely on its head. It feels like a very authentic rock album, and it also has some of the moments like electrolyte, which are the really soft, beautiful REM moments that we’ve kinda come to know and and love from REM.
So my theory is that if you switch those 2 or, you know, I guess you could say you could just drop Monster altogether, but let’s say you switch the order. It extends the legacy of out of time and automatic for the people, and it allows them to go back on the road and reestablish themselves as a rock band. As kind of now the elder statesman of what has become the alternative movement now, we’re a couple years past grunge and everybody’s recording alternative music. And and for new adventures in hi fi to come out in that atmosphere, I think it again it separates REM from the pack. It lets people see why they were thought of as as the iconic band that they were, and I think it doesn’t hurt their legacy the way monster kind of does, at that point in time.
It’s a weird theory. It’s one that we would never really know, but that’s my take on this era is that it’s almost spotless, but if there’s an issue with the albums that came out during this era, it’s that monster came out at the wrong time, and it’s a little too pat a little too manufactured, a little too studio based for what they should have been doing at that at that moment in time. Otherwise, you have some of the some of their best work in on out of time and automatic for the people, and and again, a a set of incredibly strong albums. Yeah. I think it’s interesting to think about, you know, Monster not being in the spot that it was if you maybe swap it out with new adventures, or even drop it altogether.
I will say there are good songs on Monster. There are absolutely good songs on Monster. When I first heard What’s the Frequency Kenneth, which was the lead single and is also the first track on the album, I was super excited for their new album, and I still, to this day, I think What’s the Frequency Kenneth is one of my favorite songs by them. It’s got some other good ones on it too. You know?
Star 69, Bang and Blame, King of Comedy. Those are all pretty good songs. I’m not King of Comedy. Monster’s trouble was that it did come off as being a little contrived because they hadn’t been doing guitar rock, and then the grunge thing hit, and then the next album comes out and is heavily guitar rock. And I think maybe that perception that they were, of all the bands on the planet, to be doing a little bit of bandwagon jumping, you just don’t expect that to be r e m.
And I don’t know that that’s a 100% accurate. Maybe they just had a rock album in them and that’s what they wanted to do. But I think there was a little bit of a perception anyway that, you know, that’s why monster sounded like it did is because everything had gone kind of, you know, towards the louder guitar rock sound with the the rise of grunge. I still think it’s a good album. I don’t it’s not my favorite by any stretch, especially well, not in their career at all, but even in this, run.
But I do think it’s it’s solid, and I think, you know, if you listen to it and just kinda try to strip away what you think you know about it and just listen to it on its own merits, it’s really not a bad record. My favorite album in this run and actually my favorite REM album of all time is Green, And I know they got accused of selling out going into that album. I think there are a couple of reasons for that. You mentioned one of them, which was the move to Warner Brothers. I think a lot of their hardcore fans didn’t react well to that.
Also, the fact that Stan got as much airplay as it did, I think, actually worked against them in the hardcore fan contingent of their fandom out there, because it was easy to say, well, you know, now they’re this they’re, you know, have these big pop radio hits and it’s not the same band that I grew up with, blah blah blah, But, man, Green is such a good album, and I think it’s a perfect, kind of bridge between what they were doing before and what would come after because you get the first of the Mandolin songs, with, you’re the everything, wrong child, hair shirt. Those 3 songs in particular to me are very forward looking towards what’s going to come next on the next couple of albums. But you’ve also got some of the stuff that kind of peeks back towards what they were doing with both Live Stretch Pageant and Document in the the faster songs, in pop song 89, Get Up, and Stand. To me, that all is kind of of a piece with what was going on with Documented. So you’ve got really kind of a it’s a crossover album, I think, between what was going before and what was gonna come, a little bit after that, and just really works.
It’s got a little bit of everything that I love about r e m all kind of, you know, crammed into one album. So it’s my favorite actual not just of this era, but it’s my favorite r e m album. So, for all of those that out there that that do think it was their sellout album, I have to disagree with you. Hopefully, maybe you’ll give that one another spin too and and think a little differently of it. And then the other one I wanted to talk about from that time is is Out of Time.
I think Monster is the one that gets the most kind of flack. There are Out of Time has its detractors as well, mainly because of 2 songs. I think if you drop Radio Song and Shiny Happy People off that album, you’ve got an almost flawless R. E. M.
Album. I think those 2 songs are black eyes on that album. I don’t know what they were thinking about with the with a radio song, the team up with KRS 1. I get maybe wanting to work with a hip hop artist, do something a little different than what you’ve done before, but that song is just not good, and it’s the first song on the album. And so you pop that thing on and you listen to it, and you just have a bad taste in your mouth right off the bat.
And then Shiny Happy People, it’s just a little too much. It’s a little too much schmaltzy fun pop confection for my taste. I think they tried a little too hard with it. Near Wild Heaven is a song that’s kind of similar, but it’s just light years better than that, And so, you know, I know that Out of Time has got some fence sitters about it, but I do think if you take those 2 songs off, you’ve got just a really, really solid addition to the catalog based on the other songs on that album. I really do think those two songs in particular take away from Out of Time quite a bit.
Then you get get to automatic for the people after that. Great album. I do agree that hi fi is the better record than monster. I think it’s a little bloated. I think you could drop 2 to 4 songs off that album and tighten it up a little bit, and you’d have a better record.
But it is solid. It’s got some really, really good stuff on it. Ebo the letter is kind of a little different from some of the other things that they had done before, but man, such a great song. Probably my favorite song on that album. Illumina tastes like fear, generally I insist fear.
It tastes like fear. New Past Leopard is a really good one. Yeah. It’s it’s a fantastic album. I just think, you know, it’s a little bit bloated.
I think it it could have had some songs dropped from it, and it would have been a little tighter and a little better. I’m actually gonna reiterate a couple of things that Keith said, and then I wanna talk about, my kind of journey through that era of REM as well. Because I think I represent, in some way, at least a good portion of the fans at that time and kinda what was going on and and what happened and where it could have gone another way or whatever. And I’ll I’ll get to all of that. But I’ll I’ll start with green because I agree with Keith.
This is not it’s not my favorite REM album, but it’s in my top four probably. I love green. And I was one of those people that ran out and bought it the day it came out. I was already into their their stuff or whatever. And I remember the sell out voices ringing around.
You know? Oh, they sold out. Oh, it’s so different. Oh, it’s this. In fact, I had a a really good friend that, was super into REM and just abandoned them at the moment Green came out.
And I never really understood that. To me, if there’s a sellout in the REM catalog, it’s it’s 3 albums down the road here, you know. It’s it’s not at Green. Green is yes. It’s different.
Yes. It’s more polished. Yes. It’s a little a little more eclectic than what they were doing up to that point. But that’s kinda where they were going anyway and I love the eclectic parts of it, you know.
This this album has You Are the Everything, which is a wonderful song. And it’s the prequel to Losing My Religion. You know, if you if you like if you like losing my religion, there’s nothing about You Are the Everything you’re not gonna love. You know, World Leader Pretend is one of REM’s greatest songs ever. You know, I love Orange Crush.
I love Turn You Inside Out. I adore the title the, untitled track at the end of the album, which I know was contentious for the band and there was in fighting and whatever and they didn’t wanna do it and blah blah blah. There’s stories by that song. I love it. So I have no issue with Green whatsoever.
I’m I’m well on board with REM at this time. I’m gonna disagree with you a little bit on Out of Time in although you are right that maybe it’s just a couple of speed bumps on that album that need to go and it turns into something much better, But it’s just, for lack of a better word, it’s a weird album. And it it kind of it’s kind of all over the map. It’s kinda doesn’t really know what it wants to be. Fortunately for it, it has losing my religion on it, which, you know, is REM’s it’s the jewel in their crown, if you wanna call it that.
If, you know, if singles is is your measure. So there certainly are good things about Out of Time, but I just think, overall, I would just kinda describe it as just sort of a mess. Fortunately for it, it had a monster single on it that kinda carried it through, but I don’t think there’s much on that album that was gonna win over a lot of people if they weren’t already REM fans. Then we get to Automatic For The People. Now this to me is sort of the apex of REM.
They have blended the the mellow sound that they’re sort of known for in their early years with some of the poppy stuff, but the songwriting on Automatic For The People is just undeniably incredible. The songs on here, even the songs that seem like they might be throwaways, like Money Got a Raw Deal or Ignore Land, the songwriting, the melodies, the way it’s produced, the the lyrics, everything about those songs is incredible. And I think as far as an album that, from start to finish flows in just an undeniably beautiful way, I don’t think it gets much better than Automatic For The People. Now, where I’m going next is is gonna make this seem weird because I just talked about how wonderful I think Automatic For The People is, and I’m one of those people that thought REM got too mellow at some point. But I was sort of reevaluating that and I was wrong.
And I’ll get to the whys of that, but I did not particularly love Monster, but I didn’t hate it either. I also think What’s a Frequency Canada is one of their their top moments. So I wasn’t one of those people that, like, adored Monster and needed them to keep going that way. It wasn’t that. And in fact, I love Automatic For The People, which is a very mellow album.
So and in addition to that, new adventures in hi fi, before it comes out, we get Eboe the letter as the single, which I adored. I loved the song, couldn’t wait for the album to come out, and then it came out and I listened to it and I hated it. And I don’t I’ve I’ve spent the last couple weeks trying to figure out why I hated it. Because I listened to it again a couple times and it’s really good. And in a lot of ways it rocks, quote unquote, more than Automatic For The People does.
And in some ways, if you really wanna get into semantics, it rocks more than Monster does. Because Monster is this packaged manufactured, you know, it’s what’s the frequency Kenneth and 11 more songs that sound exactly like it. And it’s it’s just kind of, you know, I didn’t want them to go that way. I wanted them to do another album like Automatic for the People, which they did and I didn’t hear it. I couldn’t hear it.
And so what happens after that album and everything that that came beyond New Adventures in Hi Fi, I kind of just dismissed and never really gave, an opportunity to. And so I I I said this to you guys before we started recording and I’ll say it again, I feel like I owe REM an apology. I abandoned you, and you were doing exactly what you should have been doing at that time. You, you know, and when you first said new adventures should have come out before monster, or, you know, maybe monster doesn’t come out at all, I don’t know what that that scenario is, but, you know, you said that might have kept the trajectory of their career going in that direction and maybe they would have lasted a little longer than they did. I totally disagreed with you when you said that the first time, but now in reevaluating everything, I I was wrong about that album and I completely agree with you.
I think it is the perfect sequel to Automatic For the People. I remember thinking at the time, you know, this album is just so mellow, it’s so mellow. And then I’m listening to it again, and you have songs like Wake Up Bomb, New Test Lepper, Undertone, Departure, Bittersweet Me, Binky the Doormat, So Fast So Numb. I just named half the album and all those songs rock. Together with.
You’re coming out into something so fast so young that you can’t even figure out. So I don’t know why I couldn’t hear it at the time, but I couldn’t. And so to REM, you know, I know they’re out there listening. Michael, Peter, Mike, Bill, I’m sorry, that I abandoned you at this at this point in your career because it wasn’t fair of me and I was wrong. So anyway, that’s kind of, you know, I I would encourage anyone that was like me that said, you know, oh, these guys are not doing what I wanna hear anymore at that time.
And I think there were a lot of us actually because you you see it in their in their popularity and their record sales and stuff. Go back, pull up New Adventures in Hi Fi, and give it a good, honest listen. Not being the album that came after Monster or being the album that was this or that. Just listen to it for what it is. It’s a really, really good album that I never gave credit to.
Before I passed the mic, I wanted to just say, just for fun, REM notoriously kind of always recorded their vocals a little muddy. Michael Stipe was always hard to understand. And even if you could understand him, his lyrics are very cryptic. Now that we have Apple Music and things like that that will show you the lyrics to these songs, I highly recommend doing that because not only were you wrong about what you thought the lyrics to some of these songs were, but they’re even more cryptic than you thought they were to begin with, especially on those first 3 or 4 albums. It’s actually really wonderful to kind of follow along with the lyrics and realize that first of all, that’s not at all what I thought he was saying.
And second, what he is saying is even weirder than what I had originally thought he was saying. So it’s kind of a a fun exercise. Yeah. I was gonna say if you’re looking for understanding the the specific words he’s saying, the lyrics help out a lot. If you’re looking to understand what he meant Exactly.
Doesn’t help at all. It actually might make it worse, to be honest. Might, in fact, confuse you further. And in fact, one of the first things I ever did on the Internet, I was in my dorm room in 19 I guess, this would’ve been, like, 94, connected to the Kermit vax system, you know, because there was no world wide web and enter, like, click point and click. This was like text based go for Kermit type connection.
The very first thing I did was find a site that had REM lyrics and download them and then print them out and put them into a binder because, you know, that’s what you did back then. But, yeah, literally, the first thing I really ever remember doing on the Internet was was finding REM lyrics because I I I mean, who the hell knew what he was saying? You know, I remember when Green came out, it was a huge deal among the fans that they had put the lyrics to world leader pretend in the in the liner notes. That was you know, not only were they known for these cryptic and sort of indecipherable lyrics, but they were also known for not letting you know what they were. And they had put the lyrics of a song in their album.
It was a huge deal when Green came out. Oddly enough, that’s one of the few songs of theirs you can understand all the lyrics to, so it really wasn’t necessary. But I do think, you know, you’re largely right about their their lyrics, but I would go back to Automatic for the People actually and highlight that one where I think you get some of the most straightforward, lyric writing of Michael Stipes in entire career and some of the most powerful lyric writing of Michael Stipes’ entire career. Songs like Try Not to Breathe, the last two songs, Night Swimming and Find the River. I don’t find the lyrics to those songs to be cryptic at all and I do find them to be really beautiful.
Try Not to Breathe, which is is a song essentially, about the contemplation of suicide. You know, anybody that’s ever been down in the dumps and gotten to the point where they thought maybe that actually is an option. You listen to that song, and it’ll bring you to tears, man. It’s, those are some powerful lyrics. And so, yeah, I agree that most of his lyrics are that way.
But if, but on that particular album, he does some of his most straightforward and best lyric writing of their entire career. Yeah. I mean, everybody everybody hurts us on that album. Like, the you you’d have to be a you’d have to be a bona fide moron to not understand. But not yet what he’s trying to say there.
Yeah. What everybody hurts is is about. So, yeah, there’s absolutely a a progression of and and that yeah. It may have peaked at automatic for the people, and then he may have gotten more, you know, gone back to being a little more cryptic in some of the later albums, but automatic for the people. Absolutely.
Sweetness follows, by the way, is another song I would throw out there as being just at one that hits you right in the stomach, when you listen to it and really understand, like, what it is that he’s saying. So we talked a little bit about success and where they were at career wise at this point. So it’s worth mentioning that all the albums in the first set of the IRS albums, except for document, only have gone gold even to this day. So gold in the US is 500,000 copies. Document is the only one that that has sold a a 1000000 copies, and it is only a million.
It’s it’s only in the platinum tier of of sales. This era that that we’re that we’re wrapping up right now, the the w b Bilberry era, all of these albums are multi platinum except for, I think, New Adventures in Hi Fi maybe is just platinum. But this is by far their most successful period. You know, from a sales perspective, this was if you consider green and and then the monster, so 2 of their biggest tours took place, probably their their 2 biggest tours took place during this era, that they also created concert films of. Tour film is a absolutely fantastic concert film that was shot, literally shot on film, and then road movie was was shot on video.
But, if you wanna see REM at the height of their powers and you love live music, that that’s 2 really great concert films that you can watch to really see what they were doing, live. Yeah. Talking about their success, I think, you know, all of us kinda bagged on Monster a little bit. It’s easy to forget just how huge that album actually was. I know we played a bunch of songs off it at KTXT.
It got MTV airplay. It got mainstream radio airplay. It’s easy to kinda look back at it and and say, well, yeah, maybe that’s the one kinda stinker in that run. But at the time that it was out, that album was enormous. So they tour after the monster album comes out, and it’s kind of an infamous tour in that they were just plagued by bad luck and issues and exhaustion and and Bill Berry literally having, like, his brain almost explode while while he’s on stage.
And that that leads to him deciding to bow out after they record new adventures in high five, which was largely written and recorded while they were on the road. So it wasn’t long after the tour that that that album came out, and Bill Berry, you know, was was integral to that album, but then stepped aside. So that is kind of a good marker for what would be the last phase of their of their career. And this is where I think it gets really touchy for any REM fan and and people that love REM as to where you fall on these last 5 albums and and how you feel about each one of them. So we’re talking about 1998 to 2011.
The albums that we’re talking about are up, reveal, around the sun, accelerate, and collapse into now. I think you kinda divide that further into 2 groups, up, reveal, and around the sun, to me, feel like they’re kind of of a of a piece and and they share a lot of elements. And then and then the last two albums, we can talk about in a minute. So Up comes out in 1998. You know, I think everybody knew it was gonna be different because you lose Bill Berry and REM is, if nothing else, a a band that’s that’s greater than the sum of its parts.
You know, everybody in that band contributed. They are famous for splitting their songwriting 4 ways on every single song. They’re not one of those bands that, you know, this guy wrote this this and this guy wrote that. They, you know, they had a method and and usually the the 3 guys would write and sometimes record the music and bring it to Michael Stipe, and he would write the lyrics and the melody. But ultimately, what you usually hear from REM is a group effort.
So you knew that taking somebody out of that was gonna affect what was happening and and losing the drummer is the one thing that you think, well, that’s that’s somebody that’s replaceable. There’s a lot of bands that have switched drummers or whatever, but Bill Berry was a lot more than that. You know, I think he did participate so much in in creating those those albums, and it’s it’s evident on Up. I mean, you listen to it and obviously, there’s a lot of drum machine and they start leaning into to the electronic sounds a little more. That’s a direct effect of of not of not having a a full time drummer working with them.
But there’s there’s something about those 3 albums, up, revealing around the sun, that something about the songwriting that I can’t quite put my finger on, but there’s so many songs that just sound a little bit like each other. It’s like maybe Michael Stipe, maybe Peter Buck. I don’t know who gets to lean a little bit more into some of their worst tendencies a little bit with the it’s a little more small c in places. There’s not a lot of rock music on those 3 albums. It’s they’re softer, they’re mellower.
There’s some songs I really love, on up, in particular, less so with revealing around the sun where it gets really it’s there’s just a smattering of of songs off of those that I would still listen to today. Most people would probably say around the sun is their least favorite REM album as a whole. You know, if you if you had to pick 1 album to never listen to again, it’s probably around the sun, but you guys may feel differently about that. I know you guys feel differently about UP. I think we all 3 have different opinions about it.
So we’ll talk about those first and then and then we can get into accelerate and collapse into now, which is kind of, the end of their career and a little bit of a, of, of kind of a resurgence. But I’m curious, you know, first of all, what you guys felt like when you first heard UP, you guy I think all 3 of us by that time were solid REM fans and, you know, Scott, maybe you were starting to lose them a little bit on HiFi, but I think are we all 3 still had high expectations for UP and hoped that they could kinda continue the run. And and in my opinion, they didn’t, but I’m curious what you guys think about that. I mentioned that I sort of started checking out at at HiFi and and for all the wrong reasons, and I, you know, I’ve kind of come to terms with that. But I did buy up the day it came out.
Like, I was excited to hear up. I I can’t defend this one. And I I tried. I I listened to it again a couple times. It and it’s not the songwriting.
It’s not it’s not anything but that production. I I just don’t like the electronic sounds. I can’t stand the drum machine. It just doesn’t get in my ears and I and that’s that’s as good of an excuse as I can give you. It just the album just does not work for me.
And I think, you know, you mentioned, the collaborative songwriting efforts of these guys. I don’t think I knew that. I I don’t I don’t think I did. And I I think that I did not realize how much influence Bill Berry was having on their sound. And if nothing else, you know, I I mentioned earlier on Green that that there was some contention over the untitled track at the end.
That contention was Bill Berry hated that song and didn’t wanna play drums on it. So I think Michael Stipe is playing the drums on it, if if I’m not mistaken. That was Bill Berry’s job, I think, was to take these songs that these guys are going, alright, we got this nice little song here, and he was like, no, how about we pick up pace on that one a little bit, bit, you know? How about we put some drums behind this that kick it up a notch? I think the reason they still stayed upbeat and jangly and poppy and rocky or whatever you wanna call it, was Bill Berry.
And I didn’t realize that he was that big of an influence until he was gone. And you listen to an album like Up, and man is he gone. There’s nothing about that album that sounds like R. E. M.
To me, other than Michael Sykes’ voice. It does have some okay songs on it. I I’m I’m fine with some of the the songs. I just think I just wish a different producer had gotten hold of them and maybe brought in a a real drummer and, you know, done some things to sort of take it a different direction. Maybe it’s a better album than it is.
But as it stands, I I I can’t defend it. It just I it just does nothing for me. See, on the other hand, I actually am a pretty big fan of Up. I’m not gonna say it’s one of my favorite REM albums. They don’t have a drummer on it.
I think that was done on purpose at the time. Mike, you probably know a little more about this than I do. But I think that their their feeling was they did not want to replace Bill Berry. And so the idea was we’re gonna move forward without a full time drummer. And so, yeah, you do get some of the electronic, drums on that album.
And the production is definitely different. I think I was ready for that. I was kind of expecting the different sound out of them without Bill Berry there. And so it is very different from any of their other albums, but that doesn’t really rub me wrong. I I kinda like it actually that it’s a little bit different, a little, kind of a new direction for them.
And I do think the songwriting is still pretty solid on there. You’ve got Lotus, through Suspicion, through Hope, through At My Most Beautiful. That’s a fantastic grown up 4 songs back to back to back right there. Sad Professor is a really good one. The single Day Sleeper is a great song.
I do think there’s some filler on it. I had, my main complaint with hi fi was that it was a little too long. It could have been 12 or 10 songs and been better. I feel the same way about Up. I think they could have cut some of the songs that they put on there.
But I think a lot of really good songs made it onto the record. When you get to reveal, every song on that album sounds exactly the same to me. Like, I you could put on any song on that album, and I would think it could be any of the other songs on that album. There’s literally nothing between those songs in my mind, to really separate them. They’re just it’s just one long kind of sound collage, pastiche of mid tempo, just not terribly interesting music.
Reveal as one that I can’t defend at all. And then you get to Around the Sun, and I don’t know that I ever heard Around the Sun after the first time I listened to it. I’ve only listened to that album one time in my life. Finished it up and said, well, it was nice when REM was a good band, but they’re not that anymore and kinda tossed it over my shoulder and never thought about it again. So of those 3, Up to me is is easily the best one, of the 3 albums and the one that kinda does fit in with their catalog and and should kinda even be considered along with some of their best stuff.
Yeah. You’re right. Up is is easily the best of the of those 3. And, you’re also right that they did not wanna bring in another drummer. I think that they were really having a hard time deciding if they wanted to still be a band at all.
And Bill Berry was like, I, I will tough this out if you guys are gonna break up. Like, I don’t want you, I want this band to keep going so much that I will keep doing this thing that I don’t wanna do anymore just to keep, you know, so they’re like, okay, we’ll, we’ll move forward. But they just, I don’t think they could see working with anybody else. I mean, at this point, they’ve been together for almost 20 years. They’re about as close as as a band can be.
You know, they don’t they’re famously didn’t have any scandals or any problems. They they really all got along. They were truly friends. So it was really difficult. And the other thing that was happening, you guys know this as well as I do.
This was 1998. I mean, electronica was massive. This was supposed to be 97, 98, 99. This was when electronica was gonna burst into the mainstream. And you had a few people like chemical brothers and fat boy slim who were starting to break in the mainstream.
And, there were a lot of bands like REM who were moving towards electronica in their in their music. And REM kind of did it out of necessity, but it was also kind of what was happening at that time. But man, Scott, you nailed it. They did a terrible job of it. If they if they could have really leaned into it and went and found a producer like Norman Cook or somebody that did electronica and could really provide a foundation for the songwriting, which I do think is still pretty strong on Up.
I don’t think the songwriting is the problem. Michael Stipe’s vocals are never the problem. The other instruments are harder to discern in some songs, like what exactly Mike Mills and what exactly Peter Buck were doing because there is this weird kind of electronica thing happening, but they’re still there. And I think if you got a producer that really understood what RM could have been, if you took those songs and really gave them the, the proper electronica treatment, and then figured out how to let Mike Mills and Peter Buck still be themselves on top of that, Up could have been pretty special. I mean, it could have really been a maybe the start of a 3rd era for REM, where REM becomes not an electronica band, but a more electronic band that, you know, maybe like a new order kind of band where you still hear instruments, you still have guys playing bass, and still have got, you know, guys playing, guitar, but it’s over an electronic beat.
There’s all these possibilities that could have happened that did not happen on up. The production is atrocious. And it’s a shame because, like, walking afraid is is a great song. Date Sleeper is a great song. Lotus is a great song.
But to my ear, they just don’t they fall flat, and I think it’s because they they didn’t live up to what I think they could have done with with the production. The other 2 albums, I just well, I get you know, REM is my favorite band. I absolutely love these guys, but reveal and around the sun are just difficult listens. And again, it’s I don’t know whose worst tendencies they lean into. I’m not sure now that they didn’t have the Bill Berry filter that you were talking about and they didn’t have the guy that kinda tried to steer him back on track, they leaned into something.
And I I don’t know if it’s my guess is it’s Michael Stipes, but, but I’m not sure. I’m not sure either because you can’t really pinpoint a sound that you say, you know, that this is that guy’s sound or this is that guy’s sound. But it it’s pretty obvious, with hindsight being what it is, that Bill Berry was the guy who said, let’s knock it up a notch. Let’s kick this one up a gear or 2, you know. And then when he’s gone, they’re stuck in 1st gear.
There are good moments, I think, on all three of these records, but overall, yeah, they just and and like you said, Keith, I I didn’t I didn’t even really mention reveal around the sun. I’m with you on around the sun. I think I heard it once and I I it just did nothing for me and I kinda checked out. Reveal is a bunch of songs that sound exactly the same. You know, it’s it it is it it has a sound that somebody should have said, okay.
This song is this tempo. This song is this tempo. This how about we put one in here that’s got a little something to it, a little oomph or whatever, you know? And it’s just not there. And it it starts to drone after a while.
It starts to just get, you know, monotonous. But I think of these 3 albums, the one that did have some potential is up, and they just they just didn’t get it. They just missed the boat somehow. To their credit, you know, they, I think, also listened to those albums a couple times, maybe only once. And said, guys, we gotta we gotta we gotta think of you know, we gotta go back to our roots.
So they got themselves a drummer. They found songs that were written in early. I think some of the songs that show up on those albums were actually written earlier and and maybe didn’t make the cut on a on a few of their earlier albums. So when you listen to Accelerate and Collapse Into Now, you’re you’re hearing a mix of a band that is pulling some ideas and songs out from their from their back catalog to try to kind of recapture that magic. And then they’re writing some new stuff along those same lines.
And I think it works to some effect to, you know, are accelerating collapse into now classic REM albums, or do they even approach the greatness of Automatic for the People or or Green or document? Of course not. Of course not. But are they way more listenable than reveal and around the sun? Like, absolutely.
You know? And so it’s it’s, to me, it’s kind of a triumph just in terms of, again, talking about my favorite band, like this is really difficult, but like how many bands can you talk about that kind of sunk to the depths that REM sunk to when you, when you look at around the sun and say the year or 2 after around the sun came out and you’re just like, you know, REM is done. I don’t think anybody, including me was even excited about their next album. I just didn’t I don’t think any of us really cared at that point. And so for them to manage to record 2 more albums that got people excited about them again, they’re not really in my regular rotation.
You know, they’re not many of those songs. Maybe 1 or 2 would make like an REM playlist if I were to make one today. I think we’re all 3 in the same boat after around the sun. It sounds like I think all 3 of us were not expecting much or anything at all out of REM. So I’m wondering what you thought when you first heard Accelerate.
For me, the the eye opening moment was a couple years before that when they put out a greatest hits album. And one of the 2 new tracks on it, which wasn’t new, was called bad day, which sounded to me like a life for its pageant here in REM song. That’s when I got excited for a comeback Was when I heard bad day. And then somebody, I think it was probably you, Michael said, well that’s an old song and Bill Berry was on it and don’t get excited. And and it shouldn’t happen.
So Accelerate was a nice return to form I think and and return to form is maybe a strange way to put it because it doesn’t sound like really anything they did before. It’s way more rocking than any album prior to it, almost to a fall, I think, because it starts to not sound like R. E. M. At some point.
But there are really good songs on you. Living Well is best revenge is fantastic. And when you’re when you’re wanting this mellow band to rock again and you pop that disc in and that’s the first song, I mean Myers went Yay! And then you know it kind of tapers off after that. But I like Man Size Wreath, supernatural, super serious, Accelerate, Horse to Water.
It’s a great song. So it certainly has its moments. And and if you were one of those people that was hugely disappointed with the 3 album run before that, it’s definitely something you should maybe give a listen to because it might win you back over a little bit. Collapse Into Now I think is also a really solid album. It’s got some great songwriting on it.
Little mellower than Accelerate, I mean kind of nowhere to go but down from there. But you know, Discoverer all the best. Mine Smell Like Honey is a really good song. That Someone is You I really like. As a coda to this career, I I think it’s a nice it’s a nice album to go out on.
It’s certainly not gonna ever be mentioned as one of their greater albums. But I think it as a so long and thanks for everything kind of album, I think it works pretty well. I think both Accelerate and Collapse into Now both as a combo, as a kind of a 1, 2 punch do that. They work as a cap for another career because with Accelerate, you go back to kind of maybe the the live sports pageant era of the of the band with Collapse into Now, you’re more into the out of time ish era of the band just in the kind of the sound of the albums with the way they were recorded. I personally will defend Accelerate till the end of time.
I love Accelerate. I think it’s actually a really good album. Not just a strong bounce back for them, but just a a really fine rock record. Maybe the best pure rock album they’ve done except for Life’s Rich Pageant. You mentioned a bunch of the songs already, and I like all those.
I I would also point out Hollow Man and Houston. Both are a couple of favorites of mine. I really love the, the kind of the screaming organ in Houston, even though it’s kind of a slower song. I think that actually works really well. So, yeah, Accelerate, it to me, is is easily the best of those 2.
But I do like the fact that then rather than just cutting it off there, they they did kind of revisit another era with Collapse Into Now. It’s a fine album. It’s got some the sound of it is nice. I’ll give it that. I don’t think the songs are quite there, in the way they are on Accelerate.
I’m a big fan of Oh My Heart. That’s kind of the my favorite song on that album. But, otherwise, I just don’t think it’s anywhere near as strong as Accelerate. But but I do give them the credit for making another attempt to go back to kind of the glory days and say, you know, what if we did another album that was in the same vein as Out of Time, Automatic for the People? Yeah.
I love that they were able to finish on, if not a high note, a a a much higher note than if they had just kind of petered out after Around the Sun. And I love the fact that they just hung it up after Collapse Into Now. They are my favorite band, and there’s, of course, a part of me that wants them to just keep throwing albums out into the world and and touring and and doing the thing until they’re 80 years old because, you know, I would get to see them again. And every now and then I’d get to listen to some new REM music, but I think I’d rather it be this way. I don’t wanna see those guys up there when they’re 80.
I I don’t really want that. They kind of recognized that they had gotten off track, I think with the it was particularly with around the sun, because I just don’t think any of those guys have ever, in any interviews that I’ve ever heard, have been really excited about the way that album turned out. And to be able to go back and record 2 very solid albums that if you put those 2 albums right after new adventures or even after up and kind of forget about revealing around the sun, you have a much cleaner career arc that actually looks pretty pretty good. And, like, it has a bell curve, but it doesn’t have that really steep cliff that that happens when when revealing around the center out. But all things considered and the way things shake out, I think it’s really I I admire the band for just saying, you know what?
We’re we’re done. We’re, we’re gonna hang it up. We’re not going don’t expect another album. Don’t expect a reunion tour. This is this is it.
This is you know, we’ve we’ve set our piece and and we’re out. As much as I would love to hear new RM music, I’m really glad that that that that’s how it went. I agree. As much as I would love to get to see them play live again, as much as I would love to see what they might do next musically, I’m glad that this is the this is the catalog of work we have. This is, you know, what we have to go with.
And it’s perfectly good the way it is, and there’s no reason to take that. You know, I don’t I don’t need to see the REM Vegas residency where they’re cranking out the hits every night. You know, I just I I have no interest in that. And and and I I like the fact that it’s kind of over. I wanted to throw in real quick and and, this is kind of, maybe off track a little bit, but I just I laughed out loud when I read this so I wanted to share it.
When you get on Apple Music and you pull up an album, it gives you a little blurb, a little like a, you know, think of a Wikipedia entry about that about that album. And for Accelerate, the first sentence is REM really took it on the chin for around the sun. I really liked that. I was like, that’s a really nice statement of, you know, these guys really like, oh, man. We can’t do that again.
Yeah. And I definitely do think there’s something to be said for for the kinda calling it a career saying this is it. We’re not gonna go any further. You know, I mentioned earlier about REM, story about REM opening for The Police. The Police, one of my all time favorite bands.
And, of course, back when it happened, when they broke up after synchronicity, you know, I was upset because I wanted more police music. But as years go on, and I’m still a a fan of The Police, it’s kinda cool actually that it’s just those 5 albums, you know, and they’d never tried to do anything else. So they’re it’s nice that a band that you really like just has a point when they say, okay. You know what? We’ve done our best work.
We’ve done everything we’re gonna do. Let’s just call it a career, you know. Now we can go do other things, whatever. And being able to go out on their own terms and do it on a couple of really solid records, especially accelerate, but even collapse into now, I do think it was a nice cap for their career. And I’m glad that they had that moment at the end where they were able to kinda redeem themselves a little bit if you wanna call it that, you know, after the debacle of Around the Sun.
We’ve been talking REM for a while. We could probably talk for 5 hours more about REM if I’m guessing there’s so many aspects to their career. But, that’s a nice overview of one of the greatest, if not the greatest college radio bands of all time for sure. There’s a few bands that you might mention in the same breath with REM when it comes to college rock and college radio, but they are the essence of college radio. And anybody that is just now getting into college radio or just now getting into maybe you’re young and just now getting into music.
Start at the beginning, work your way through the catalog. I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised by, how their career progresses. I think you’ll you’ll find something to like even if you don’t love everything because there’s there’s a lot of variety and a lot of fun there. Glad we spent the time to do it. I appreciate you guys joining me.
Scott Mobley, Keith Porterfield, thank you once again for joining me on the podcast. If you haven’t seen the film yet, you can go download it right now. 35,000 Watts, the story of college radio available at www.35,000watts.com. We talk all about college radio. We talk to Bertus Downs, REM’s manager.
We talk to Mitch Easter who produced, with Don Dixon, their first two albums. So, of course, we’ll talk about some REM in the film, but a lot of other great bands and a lot of other interesting college radio nuggets as well. So check that out. And join us next time on 35,000 Watts, the podcast.