And welcome back to 35,000 watts, the podcast. My My name is Michael Moad. I am here with Keith Porterfield and Scott Mobley. We are continuing an episode from last week where we are talking about our favorite rock documentaries. And we had so much fun and got so into it.
We talked a little longer than we planned, so we decided to break this episode up a little bit. Last week, we talked about, Another State of Mind from 1984. And this week, we’ll be talking about my choice. One of my favorite music docs is Dig. It came out in 02/2003, but was filmed, I believe, from about 1996 up until about 02/2003 and then put together.
So seven or eight years of footage, and the filmmaker was kind of embedded with particularly with the Danny Warhols, which is a band out of Portland, Oregon. But also their story is is kind of intertwined with the story of the Brian Jonetown Massacre, which is, a band that was based out of LA. And they’re they’re two kind of leaders, Anton Newcomb, from Brian Jonetown Massacre and and Courtney Taylor. Courtney Taylor Taylor, as he’s known, is the kind of the bandleader for Danny Warhols and is also like the narrator of the film. It’s it’s it’s a hell of a story.
It’s a hell of a film to watch for a lot of reasons. But so the the similarities I see is that you have another situation where you’ve got a filmmaker that’s kind of embedded this time instead of for a five week tour. It’s like a seven year journey with these bands, but they’re getting to see the behind the scenes stuff, all the dirt. They’re seeing the bands breaking up and falling apart, particularly in the case of Brian Jonetown Massacre. It’s VHS.
It’s it’s messy. It’s a lot of kind of, like, questionable audio and stuff just like just like another state of mind, but that’s because it was, you know, they’re genuinely just, like, had a camera and were just kinda trying to get what they could get, but that’s what makes it great as well because you kinda get to see a lot of stuff that maybe you wouldn’t see in a more polished documentary. So the story, you know, essentially is you have two and again, West West Coast bands who now you know, instead of punk, now you’re kinda talking about the indie rock world. When you listen to, like, Anton Newcomb talk, you could almost draw a line between him and a guy like Sean Stern. Like, some of the ways they talk are are very similar.
Some of the kinda grandiose ideas that they have are very similar. Anton, I think, maybe a little more mentally ill perhaps than Shottschurn in some ways. Like, Anton was and still is to some degree, but I think he’s he’s chilled out a lot. He’s he’s he’s a lot to take. I would imagine in real life, he’s a lot to take just even in in the seventy or eighty minutes you’re watching this film.
He’s pretentious, I think, would be a good word as is Courtney Taylor to some degree. They’re, you know, they’re not I wouldn’t argue that they those two guys in particular are super likable, you know, to be perfectly honest. I love both the bands. And I think as you said, Scott, in a previous episode, you know, you’re a big fan of Jane’s Addiction, but Perry Farrell is like the douchiest douche who ever douche, and you just had to have to separate those two. I I kinda feel that way a little bit about both of these bands to some degree, less so the Dandies than than Brian Jotetown Massacre.
The story is that these two bands are are both not really unsigned at the moment that this film starts. Brian Jonestown is is an unsigned band. The Dandies, I think, had had probably just been signed to Capitol Records at this point. The timelines are a little wavy in the film. You’re not really sure exactly what point in time because it all kinda moves pretty fast.
But ultimately, you know, what you’re presented with is one band, the Brian Jonestown Massacre, who is led by kind of a a messianic, pretentious, fairly egotistical dude who also happens to be kind of a musical genius and is very, very against the idea of selling out and and is very wary of record labels and going so far as to maybe kind of sabotage some of his chances to get on a major label to kind of maintain his integrity, all with a touch of just like a little mental illness, a little, you know, some anger issues, some some social issues, difficulty getting along with his bandmates who are so aren’t necessarily particularly likable a lot of the time. That whole story is kind of juxtaposed with the Danny Warhols who are a little more put together, a little more polished. They, again, have have either are about to sign or have just signed with Capitol Records as this film is kind of kicking off. So you’re seeing them kinda navigate the world of of being an indie band who now is is signed to a major label. You see a little bit of the juxtaposition between the LA scene and the Portland scene.
I think the Dandys really represent Portland fairly well in terms of being, you know, pretentious, but in a more likable way than LA people a lot of the time. Besides Cordy Taylor, I think the rest of the Dandy Whirls are perfectly kinda normal Portland people, you know, including Zia, who who I’ve actually met and is a perfectly lovely person in real life as well. So I think you can kinda root for the Dandys a little bit more, but again, you know, there’s times when you you kinda aren’t sure if you’re supposed to root for anybody in the film. But as time goes on, the Brian Jonetown Massacre tends to kinda fall apart, and they lose some band members, and and you’re kind of just always pushing against, this this guy Anton’s, like, belief in what he’s doing and and also his kind of hesitancy to to really try to make something of the band. And and I think a lot of drug use obviously is involved in in this whole film as well, particularly on the Brian Jones outside, so so that is an issue.
Jealousy obviously starts to creep in where because these guys are seeing their friends take off and have success where they’re not having it. Some moments that we can talk about more about, but so I’m curious to see what you guys thought about. That’s kinda my take on it is I I think it’s a really great film to watch. I think it’s a really interesting look at indie rock culture on the West Coast in the late nineties or the mid to late nineties, let’s say. So it’s it’s, you know, you’re kind of fifteen years now removed from another state of mind.
You’re in a different kind of genre of rock, But there’s so many kind of parallels too between these struggling bands trying to get started. And, you know, they have the house where they all go and try to you know, there’s there’s a lot of things that are that are kind of similar. But, yeah, the one thing I will point out before I hand over the mic to you guys is in another state of mind, the word record label is not mentioned once. That phrase is not used once. The idea of recording a record isn’t mentioned once.
In Dig, I think in the first two and a half minutes, it’s mentioned like three times because that’s like now a huge, huge thing. So there there’s a very different focus I think of the bands not necessarily coming from as quite as pure of place as the bands in in another state of mind were coming from. I think, right off the bat, you’re you’re talking a lot about the corporate world and the record label world and what that means to a band in Dig, and that just didn’t even come up in another state of mind. So that’s a very interesting thing that that was very different about where the bands kinda were coming from. But, yeah, I don’t know if you guys have seen this before or if you’re able to watch it, but I’m I’m curious to see what you thought.
So my history with this movie is I I did not see it when it came out. And and I don’t know why. I I this movie is obviously made for me. And and and as someone that loves documentaries, loves music documentaries, and loves this kind of music, this I should have seen this a long time ago. But I I think I wanna say I watched it, like, during COVID.
That’s because I was catching up on movies that I needed to see and hadn’t and I saw it then for the first time. Watched it again this week. I’ve always been sort of fascinated with this movie because I think, Mike, you’re a you’re a documentary filmmaker. You can probably address this more than I could. But when I see movies like this that, you know, said shot over an eight year period or a ten year period, you know, the filmmaker has to just trust in something, that something is going to happen here, you know.
And every once in a while, when they shoot people for ten years or eight years or whatever, and a story emerges from that, you get a movie like Hoop Dreams, or, you know, things like that. And I think this movie falls into that category. I don’t think these guys set out to make this movie. I don’t think when they turned on the cameras, this is the movie they thought they were making. But, man, lightning in a bottle for sure.
Like, they caught a magic moment here. And just everything about the dynamic in these bands is just perfect. Like, you couldn’t have scripted this better. That I don’t know if you guys agree with this or not, but and I I think but I think this is kind of where the movie wants to go, is that the Brian Jonestown Massacre is a far superior band to the dandy Warhols. And it’s not saying anything necessarily bad about the dandy Warhols.
It’s just that Brian Jonestown Massacre sort of has this they seem like the band that should make it. The Danny Warhol seemed more like the fun band that’s you know, they’re a little more like you said, they’re a little more congenial and, you know, whatever. This is a side note, but I just love that it’s right there their names too. You have the Brian Jonestown Massacre, this sort of dark, you know, it’s a pun thing, but it’s also kind of dark and brooding or whatever. And then you have the Dandy Warhols, you know.
And that’s kind of the dynamic in these bands’ personalities as well. But yeah, what a great capture of like what this is and what and like you said, the record label is of, like, what this is and what and like you said, the record label thing. These guys are in it to win it. They wanna get on a record label and record an album and get, you know, their music out to the world. I, you know, I think I get another state of mind.
Those bands couldn’t have even thought about dreaming about getting a record label deal. You know? That just wasn’t gonna happen for those bands at that time. And so they had to focus on just, you know, making $5 a night, you know, blowing some kids’ faces off with their music. Yeah.
But these guys wanna make it, quote, unquote. They wanna they wanna, you know, get on a record label and do all that stuff. The interesting thing about the movie, and I think where they’re trying to go with this movie, is you can have all the talent in the world. You can be the best songwriter, the best musician, the best all this, but there is so much more to getting on top than that. You know, in a perfect world, the Brian Jonestown Massacre would be the most successful indie rock band of all time.
They’re not because numerous reasons. Their lead singer is kind of a dick. They they, they don’t get along at all. They can’t get along with anybody else. You know?
Anybody that comes in to try to help them get shunned and, you know, whatever. And then you have the dandy walls, which are a lesser band, I think, talent wise and stuff, but they’re willing to work with everybody. And they kinda get along and they’re fun and, you know, and they’re and they’re the ones that end up in in on a small level making it. You know? And I think that’s a really interesting thing that that I really doubt when these filmmakers sat down to plan out making this movie.
I don’t think that’s the movie they thought they were making, but, boy, did they get lucky and then make a hell of a movie in the process. So, yeah, I really, really like this movie. And, I don’t know if, if you guys mentioned this or not, but, there’s a new version of this movie out. It’s called Dig XX. I guess it’s like the twenty year anniversary of it or something.
It apparently has a lot more footage, like, to the tune of thirty minutes or so of extra footage. I only found it on Amazon. It was, like, I think $5 to rent. I’m going to watch it. I did not get a chance to yet.
You know, I hadn’t seen this one either. So this was when I watched it, was watching it for the first time. I I really enjoyed it. I I liked it a lot. It’s interesting.
I’m trying to think about how I wanna order my thoughts here after having listened to you guys talk about it. First things first, I will not, concede the point that the Brian Jonestown Massacre is a better band than the Danny Warhols. In fact, I’ll go the other direction. I just wanna prefer the Danny Warhols. Now I did like the the songs that you heard from the Brian Jonestown Massacre in the, in the movie.
I thought they were all good. And, Anton Newcomb is clearly very, very talented, a great songwriter, great musician. He is so thoroughly unlikable. And all of his bandmates are so thoroughly unlikable that even having enjoyed the songs in that movie, there is no way that I would ever dream of buying one of their albums, supporting them in any way. That’s a man that deserves no validation whatsoever, and I’m not gonna spend any of my hard earned money, propping up that ego.
And maybe there is an element of mental illness there. If you’d seems like there probably probably was, I I don’t know. But, yeah, that is one of the most vile, unlikable individuals that I have ever seen in in life on screen at all. That was just a terrible terrible person. And so, yeah, that to me colors the movie a little bit because you by the end, you know, I think they’re trying to present him as a sympathetic figure, But by the end, I’m I’m rooting for him to fail.
I don’t want this guy to have that success You know, he doesn’t deserve it and in my opinion on the other hand the dandy’s, you know, I thought they came off really well and you talk about Courtney Taylor potentially kind of being that kind of a an egomaniac as well, But I don’t really think it’s the same thing with him. I mean, this is just a guy who wants to succeed. And I think once musicians, if they’re being honest with themselves, they want people to hear their music, you know? They want to get that music out there. They want people to to like it.
And it is clear that that that Courtney Taylor does he wants as many people as possible to hear what he does I think where you know, you you know, you could you could argue that that is selling out or that that’s not a good thing. I think the difference with with Courtney Taylor is that and you see it in the in the film when they turn in one of the records and the record company sends it back to him and says, you know, we don’t hear any songs on this. He’s not willing he’s willing to play ball, like you say, to a certain extent. He’s not willing to to compromise what he does, you know. He still is the songwriter that he is, and he’s not gonna change that to try to get that success.
He doesn’t want just the success. He wants the success based on his music, the music that he writes and plays and wants to get out there. And to me, I think that’s admirable. You know, you could, I guess, call it selling out. And, obviously, the guys in the Brian Jonestown massacre did call it selling out and then recorded this tracks just to try to to cheese them off.
And then, you know, never had anything good to say about him and all this stuff. And meanwhile, on the other hand, the dandy’s had nothing but great things to say about the Brian Jones down master. You listen to one side, and they’re like, oh, these guys have sold out, and they’re terrible. And these their lyrics are awful. And why are they writing these songs?
And on the other side, Courtney’s is like, oh, man. Anton, he’s so talented. He can’t put it together, but everything he writes is gold. You know what I mean? The rivalry there is on only on one side.
You know? It the brother Brian Jonestown massacre clearly saw the dandies as rivals. The dandy’s did not, I don’t think, see the the massacre as as their rivals. You know, they were just part of the scene, and they wanted to be friends with them. You know?
Courtney Taylor at one point takes some time off from doing his stuff just so he can go hang out with them on their tour and tour around with them and just kinda catch the madness of it all, you know? So, yeah, I think there’s, you know, a big difference between those two, and I think it comes through very clearly in the film. But if they were trying to paint, Anton Newcomb as a sympathetic figure, they failed miserably in my eyes because he is not that. And maybe he’s got better later in life. Maybe he’s not quite as as much of a dick as he was in that film.
But there was not a single moment of that movie where Anton Newcomb came off as a likable individual at all, just a terrible person. He doesn’t have a redemption arc in the in the film. I could tell you that for sure. Like, I you I think that’s intentional too. I I don’t think the movie has any I don’t think the movie has any intention of propping him up.
No. No. I don’t know. I think I think that’s kind of the point of the movie is this man is self destructive, and he’s destroying this band. And he’s trying to destroy everything around him.
And and all the talent in the world won’t save you from that. I really think that’s one of the the key points of the movie. Yeah. The inmates are not even better. You know?
They’re all terrible people too. It’s yeah. It’s it’s tough to watch them have some of those have some of their moments. Anton is just not a guy you would wanna even spend probably five minutes with. Not not the Anton in the film.
Again, I don’t know a lot about, you know, what he is now thirty years later. I I think he’s I think he’s mellowed out, so maybe not. I don’t know. But, He’s still recording music as the Brian Jokes now massacre. Yeah.
Yeah. I haven’t heard any of it, but Who I would say is the better band? I I like the Danny Warhols better. I think Brian Jonestown Massacre was trying to push a little push the envelope a little further, and I think if they had been more disciplined and been able to pull it together, I think they might have ended up creating some albums that maybe would have rivaled or been better than the dandy whirls, but I’ve, they suffer man, I don’t wanna say suffer from the same thing as Guided by Voices because Guided by Voices is just such a great band. I don’t wanna diss them at all, but they’re prolific to a fault, shall we say.
I think the Brian Jostomaster was during that time. You know, they were putting out like two or three albums a year for a while there. If you call down that period of of time where they were really that particular lineup in that moment in time where they were they were recording like their satanic majesty’s request and thank god for mental illness and one or two of the other albums that came in around that time. You could distill those down into one or two albums over the course of a couple years that that would have been really good and had a lot of variety. And I think get a producer in that could kind of rein in some of their worst impulses and bring out some of the better impulses of of their experimentation and their, their kind of desire to push the envelope a little bit in in psychedelia, shall we say.
There could have been some really, really great stuff. That said, I I think, like, if you were to, say, dip your toes in the Moran Jonestown Massacre, I would I would go buy or go find a copy of Thank God for Mental Illness and start there. And I can do you one even better. Too? I can do you one even better.
If you kinda like the Brian Jonestown Massacre sound, but maybe you you like your, you know, you like Keith and you just can’t get down with these guys because of of who they are, one of their members broke away and formed another band called Black Rebel Motorcycle Club, that sounds a lot like the Brian Jonestown Massacre. So start there maybe because if you like that sound, they’re a much more accessible band. And and and from what, you know, from what I can gather, maybe better people. I don’t know. The other thing that’s interesting, and I think this goes back to another state of mind as well.
You know, the kids these days have this term try hard. Like, yeah. He’s a try hard, and it’s a it’s a insult. But what I think you see in both of these films is the fact that the people who are not just in it to be a part of the scene and the culture, but the people who are actually in it to try to make music and put in the work that it takes to write songs like Mike Ness going out, and he had his guitar. You know, you you see him with his guitar writing.
And and maybe it’s because of the way the film was put together, but he’s the one you see kinda constantly working on his craft throughout another state of mind as as far as you really kinda see that kinda thing in the film. Same thing with the dandies in terms of them understanding, like, we have this opportunity. We need to hit our deadlines. We need to keep our shit together so that we can take advantage of this opportunity that we have with this major label deal, which is why they have their their first debut album, which was reasonably good, but then three pretty solid albums in a row that they recorded because they did work on their craft, and they did get better, and they they were proud of the work they were putting into it. I think that’s it’s kind of an interesting thing about music scenes in general, I think.
And, you know, we were talking about, like, the punk scene and how the perception of the punk scene was what it was in the early eighties. What that perception was of kids who were on the fringe of that culture, who were just dipping their toe in it and maybe wanted because they wanted to be troublemakers or they wanted to, you know, cut their hair a certain way and then be a certain way. Whereas the people that actually were driving the the real core of punk culture were the kids who were grabbing guitars and drums and learning how to play them and learning how to write songs and spending the time it takes to sit down with your friends and work out chords on a on a song and figure out lyrics and and all of that. Like that those were the people that actually made the culture and made the music. They were the ones that weren’t out causing trouble.
And, yeah, sure, they were part of that scene, but, like, the you can’t you can’t be out every night just fucking around, basically, and and be a talented, successful musician. Those things don’t go together. Like, these talented, successful people are the ones who spend the time in the studio or spend the time in, you know, just a room with the guitar, with the keyboard, whatever, writing, you know, and that’s the Danny Warhols. That social distortion in these films. Those are the bands that end up making it.
And I think you can see it right off the bat even in their early years that those are the ones that were willing to put in the time. And I think when you see some of the, like, the negative parts of culture, like the punk culture or whatever, it’s it’s not the it’s not the musicians. It’s people that are on the fringes of that culture that are just kind of on the more negative side of it. But, yeah, I would say, you know, if if I have to listen to an album from one of these two bands, for some reason, I would 99 times out of 100 choose a dandy warhols album. I think I I love dandy warhols come down.
I love, 13 tales from urban bohemia and and I really love Welcome to the Monkey House. Like, those are great, great albums in my opinion. Again, that said, I really like Thank God for Mental Illness. I like Their Majesties, Satanic Majesties’ Request from Brian Jonestown. There’s a couple other albums around that era that are also good.
They each have, I’d say, three or four good tracks on them and then just some a lot of just kind of farting around, which is what Anton was kind of known for. But, yeah, I it’s a dig is another one that sometimes is a little tough to watch just because of you feel this band falling apart. You feel these people kind of having to deal with this this guy, Anta, who just is is is not again, it’s not a guy I would want to be around so I kind of feel for the people who are kind of in his orbit a lot of times. He has a lot of people who are kind of, propping him up, you know, throughout the film, and and I don’t always agree with their assessment of his of him. But, that is what it is.
I I’m sure there are people who love Brian Jostown and love Anton and and would probably fight me on all of this, and and you’re welcome to do so in the comments because I’m curious to hear what you have to say about it. I I don’t think I my take. I don’t think I would stand on the mountaintop and scream the praises of the Brian Jonestown massacre. I just I think what it is is I just don’t like the Warhol so much. But, I you know, they’re just they’re just not for me.
But, I don’t know. I just what I saw when watching this movie was and you’re right. The Danny Warhols are putting in the work, and the Brian Jonestown Massacre is, you know, doing what they do and the thing. But I I think, you know, maybe that’s the dynamic the the movie is going for is is talent versus work. You know?
I think I don’t know. I’d be hard pressed to say that, you know, or to to to think that, you know, someone would say that Danny Warhols have more talent than Mike Jones at massacre. I just don’t think that’s true. I think the talent is on that side. But the work ethic and maybe the desire and maybe the, the willingness to focus and not screw around and and do what they do and focus on doing this and making, you know, making the dream happen.
You know, the Andy Warhol certainly won that battle. And I really think that’s kind of what the movie is going for is, you know, you can have all this talent. You can be great at what you do, but if you’re not gonna put in the effort that these guys are putting in, you’re not gonna get there. And I I I really think at the end of the day, that’s what the that’s what the movie is trying to say. Yeah.
I don’t wanna as much as I, you know, have slagged off Anton and and his bandmates, like I said, I liked every single Brian Jonestown Massacre song that they played in that movie, you know, with the stuff they played live, the stuff he was working on. It was all good. I’m not gonna deny the guy’s talent. I can’t tell anyone else not to go check him out. You know, feel free to go to go listen to him because the the stuff is good.
It really is. It’s just after watching that movie, it was he’s such a lot unlikable guy that, yeah, I just couldn’t couldn’t get behind him at all. It’s tough. It’s tough. I that was one of my biggest questions going into this was, would you guys feel the same way about him as I do, which is just that, again, I would not wanna spend, you know, even a moment in a in an enclosed space with him.
Yeah. The, ego doesn’t even really begin to describe exactly what’s going on with him in that film. And I I don’t know. I I feel like I don’t know about you guys, but I feel like everybody’s known an Anton in their life kind of, especially if you like, in the college radio world or the music world. Like, we were in that world and not the club world.
There’s just that that kind of just overly confident, overly grandiose type that, you know, that talks fast and and narcissistic to a fault. Like, there’s just so many bad qualities there that it’s really hard to to drill down beneath all that and see that, yeah, I think I think underneath all that, there was a musical genius, but too many layers of other of other crap on top of that to keep it from from coming out. And whereas Courtney Taylor, Taylor maybe wasn’t a musical genius, he was able to write some damn catchy tunes and get those captured on tape and and put onto a CD and out into the world. And and that’s why they, you know, at least had a major label album. And I I think we played both bands at KTXC, so it’s not that either one of them, you know, broke any bigger on college radio than the other.
I think we played plenty of Brian Jones’ stuff at KTXD if I remember right. But, yeah, it’s it’s a fascinating film if you haven’t seen it. I don’t know. Watch the original version first and then the new version. I haven’t seen the new version yet, so I don’t know how it’s gotta be a longish film.
So, you know, if you’re just dipping your toes in, you may not be ready for the full that would that would make it, like, a two hour fifteen minute film if you added thirty minutes to it. So Yeah. I pretty much the first time, I think. Yeah. I would start with the original too.
I mean, for one thing, it’s an excellent film. There’s there’s no you know, I’d almost say there’s no reason to add anything to it. But just as someone who likes it, I’m curious to see what they added on. Maybe we can report back later on that, I guess. I’m curious as well.
Whether or not we recommend the new edit. I I I will watch it soon. So I’ll I’ll, maybe we can revisit that. But, yeah, I I would certainly tell anyone listening that hasn’t seen it at all. Just start start with the with the film that exists already.
It’s it’s perfectly fine. It’s an excellent, excellent documentary. Alright. That’ll do it for this week. We still have one more rock documentary to talk about.
We will be doing that next week, so tune in again. Thanks for joining us. Don’t forget 35,000 Watts, the story of college radio, featured documentary about college radio, is now available on Amazon Prime and Google Play to rent or buy. So please go check that out if you get a chance. And thanks again to Keith and Scott.
We will see you next week on 35,000 watts, the podcast.